Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Monday night National Football League games prior to 1970

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. In addition to being the most common position, the arguments that this list is a distinct situation from the games broadcast as Monday Night Football and does not satisfy WP:LISTN are persuasive. RL0919 (talk) 04:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of Monday night National Football League games prior to 1970[edit]

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Fails WP:LISTN, the only assertion to notability is that these games were played on a Monday before Monday Night Football became its own series (WP:NOTINHERITED). All of the references mention the games were played on Monday but the grouping is not in itself notable. This article was listed at AFD previously in 2016 as part of a group of similar articles here that resulted in "no consensus". The article was also PROD'd in 2011 here with the explanation "Unreferenced. Does not comply with WP:NOT#STATS." It was deprodded here with the rationale "useful page". Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep In my view, it passed WP:GNG last time and that hasn't changed.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Paulmcdonald: Note I am not nominating the lists of Monday Night Football game results as that is part of a defined television series. I believe this nomination is different from the big AFD grouping previously as this is just a list of games that were randomly played on a Monday instead of Sunday for various reasons. Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yep.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - Paulmcdonald, this article is duplicative to History of Monday Night Football. The key is the fact that Monday Night Football before 1970 is notable, but only as a part of the history of the official MNF brand. The individual listing of results is not, simply because prior to 1970 there was no MNF brand. The topic of this article is more literally List of National Football League results for games that occurred on a Monday night prior to Monday Night Football in 1970, which is an absurd topic. Can you please elaborate on how a list of results for Monday night games before MNF is notable per WP:GNG, specifically providing a few sources that show significant coverage of this topic as a whole, because the article itself clearly doesn't have any sources that meet WP:LISTN. And again, I have to stress that the topic of this article is not History of Monday Night Football, but is a list of results of Monday night games that occurred prior to MNF. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yep.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        You know Paulmcdonald, for all the times we disagreed on deletion discussions, I always respected the fact that you took the time to provide sound reasoning behind your comments, whether it was a policy, guideline, links, or well-written essay. Your lack of engagement in this thread is disappointing. You wrote in the last deletion discussion that covered more than just this article, that the articles clearly pass WP:GNG and WP:LISTN with a multitude of sources. I am asking you to provide proof of what you are saying. Which sources are you referencing that make this specific article meet WP:GNG and WP:LISTN? You don't need to respond to me, obviously, but not providing anything to back up your assertions will certainly weigh on how the closing admin will judge consensus. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        First off, the bulk of the pinging read like "Gee Paul have you actually read this thing?" Yep, I read it. Quit pinging me, I'm busy. Want more reasoning? Okay, it's quite simple. In order to compare how Monday Night Football changed football, we need to have a control data set. No doubt the concept of Monday Night Football changed the game, the country, and to some extent the world. It's not hard to find articles about how Monday Night Football changed everything. When those highly qualified significant independent third party articles talk about how it changed everything, they are indeed making this list notable because they are saying "before it was X, and then after it became Y". All I'm saying is that if we do that, we should have both the X and the Y.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        My first ping was to notify you I was asking you a direct question: Can you please elaborate on how a list of results for Monday night games before MNF is notable per WP:GNG, specifically providing a few sources that show significant coverage of this topic as a whole, because the article itself clearly doesn't have any sources that meet WP:LISTN.. You responded with Yep. My second ping was to again request that you answer the actual question. If you don't enjoy pinging, than turn it off. Up to the point that someone asks me directly to stop, I'll ping whoever I want to ping; honestly its courtesy to let people know you are talking about them. In your comments above, you have not provided any sources to satisfy WP:LISTN. We all agree that the era of Monday night games before MNF is relevant and notable, the disagreement is how a list of the results of those games meets our notability guidelines. As I requested a few times above, can you point to a source that backs up your argument? Is there even one source that lists the results of these games or discusses the results of these games? If not, your argument lacks any merit. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        @Gonzo fan2007: As I think that I said a bit earlier, Pro Football Reference has a week-by-week schedule for every single NFL game since the beginning. Here's the schedule for 1966, the year that the first televised Monday night game took place (on Halloween night in Week 8). Is it a proper, linear list of every single Monday night NFL game prior to 1970, no but since Pro-Football-Reference.com has its own article on Wikipedia, it should be pretty reliable. BornonJune8 (talk) 03:20, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        Wikipedia is not a sports almanac or indiscriminate list of stats. Pro Football Reference is. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:45, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        @Gonzo fan2007: Maybe I misread you, but you said or asked if there was a list of Monday night NFL games prior to 1970, and Pro Football Reference in that regard, has them. I wasn't even specifically referencing or referring towards the stats or results of said games themselves, just documented proof or evidence that there actually were Monday night football games prior to 1970. BornonJune8 (talk) 09:06, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        
        Comment the list is WP:DISCRIMINATE and is well-defined.--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:35, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment/weak delete: I've read through the previous AfD and I'm completely unconvinced that many of the "keep" arguments there apply to this page. For example, the argument analogizing to lists of episodes of a tv show is strong, but would apply only to the lists for Monday Night Football games. I read LISTN as requiring that the topic at the core of the list be notable and discussed by third party sources, and right now all of the sources on this page are effectively extended box scores that rarely, if ever, discuss the fact that NFL games are being played on a Monday in any way that we'd consider significant. Yes, the MNF format would become notable with the tv deal, but that's not the topic of this article and I have an extremely difficult time justifying this article without sources that discuss Monday games before 1970 as a set. Interestingly, there is a section in the MNF article about this topic (History_of_Monday_Night_Football#Pre-1970)...but it has no sources for all of the prose that might justify notability, of course. If this section was properly sourced, I'd be fully convinced of the notability of the topic at the core of this list. As is, I'm leaning delete/merge into that section. Nole (chat·edits) 17:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom and Nolelover. Fails WP:LISTN as the topic isn't discussed as a group in reliable sources. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 04:09, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nolelover:, @Gonzo fan2007:, @Eagles247: Several articles on regular season, prime time NFL games prior to the introduction of Monday Night Football on ABC in 1970: Monday Night Football Was Born in Detroit in 1964, Giants' First Night Game at Home in 26 Years Marks NFL 1964 ..., The forgotten history of Lions-Packers games on Monday night, The Lions hosted the first Monday Night Football Game in NFL history, Professional Sports Antitrust Bill - 1964: Hearings...88-2...Jan 30, 31; Feb, First Monday Night more football than flash, September 21, 1970…’ABC Monday Night Football’ Debuts, October 21, 1934 : Detroit Lions Play First Night Game BornonJune8 (talk) 07:53, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - What you are failing to grasp is that sources need to discuss the list as a whole, not just each individual entry in the list. Nolelover, it is important to note that almost every source BornonJune8 provided is a blog or unreliable source. None of them (that I can read) discuss the topic of "Monday Night Football games prior to 1970". They do mention individual instances of MNF occurring before 1970, but not the list as a whole. History of Monday Night Football is the appropriate place for this information, which should be in prose form, and not list format. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - - @Gonzo fan2007: Naturally, not every one of those sources that I provided is going to literally spell out every single Monday night NFL game prior to 1970 (I think Pro Football Reference is a good place to start though). What I was trying to say is that there has been some online coverage of the fact that the NFL did actually stage Monday night games prior to it becoming a regular occurrence in 1970. Before the merger, there were occasional Monday night games, but the first one to be televised was between the Cardinals and Bears in '66. There were only six televised Monday night games before 1970. That doesn't necessarily mean that I all out disagree with your argument that some of my sources aren't the most "reliable". BornonJune8 (talk) 12:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        After looking over all the sources you've added, I still believe the more reliable ones with any significant coverage are only really talking about a couple years in the context of the MNF deal, although that might be enough to make this notable to others. Nole (chat·edits) 05:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge the prose, maybe the lists, but definitely the prose in the 1960s bit, to History of Monday Night Football. This particular grouping of games is not notable in and of itself, though some of the games in the 60s are important historically to the development of the television show. However, that article already does a good job of spelling out the history, so there may not be anything to merge, but we should make sure we don't lose the content. SportingFlyer T·C 01:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While there's some persuasive argument against keeping, there is still disagreement on what to do with the material. (Delete or merge?)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ミラ P 03:17, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete/merge Unclear why it matters what day of the week these games were played on. What about games on other days of the week? The only relevance is with respect to the TV program; these games listed have no relationship to each other. Reywas92^Talk 03:45, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Reywas92: It matters because the name of the program point blank is MONDAY Night Football. That means it's the only NFL game that's being played on that particular day...and in prime time. Ever noticed that the other games aren't officially branded on air as SUNDAY Afternoon Football! BornonJune8 (talk) 01:44, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - But these games are NOT PART OF THIS PROGRAM! Write all you want about MONDAY Night Football the TV program, but merely combining the words "Monday, "night", and "football" do not make an encyclopedic topic. Were the games in this list "officially branded on air"? No, so this is the among the dumbest things I've seen on here in while. Put it in the history article. Reywas92^Talk 04:11, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Reywas92: My main point that Sunday afternoon games are the norm so it would be of little point to track all of them unlike Monday night games. And dare I say that Monday night games were incredibly rare before they became a regular and permanent occurrence in 1970. How exactly is pointing out the rare case of regular season NFL games being played on a different day and time of the week "dumb"? And how do you know that they were't branded on air as Monday Night Football? They had to presumably, make reference to the unique programming occurrence. BornonJune8 (talk) 07:49, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails LISTN. – DarkGlow (talk) 10:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to History of Monday Night Football in order to WP:PRESERVE the article history, and selectively merge any material that is relevant into that article. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails WP:NLIST. The only connection between these games and the only notability asserted is that they happened to be played on Mondays. While the Monday Night Football package is certainly notable, notability is not inhereted, so the small list of pre-1970 Monday games should not have its own article. Some of the content could be merged to History of Monday Night Football per User:SportingFlyer above. Frank Anchor^Talk 14:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.